Well we can't really say that this current universe is the 1st and only one that has ever existed, as you said "how many times does that actually happen?"
for all we know, we could be the 2nd universe, or 30th, or 200000000th,
so in all probability it's completely possible for everything we know to be just a random occurance, since it has most likely happened in a less "perfect and organised" way before millions of times

Also, quoting Einstein hardly reinforces your argument, although he was a brilliant man, and a genius, doesnt mean he's infallible

I'm not convincing?
I never said I had a 100% factual answer, it's a theory, exactly the same as your theory of a "god". And I hardly believe that faith influenced much of Einsteins work.

also when you say "how did all the other ones form?"
I could say the exact same thing for "god"

Religion is a good thing, as long as you dont take it too seriously. In my oppinion you can believe all you want as long as you dont ignore whats going on around you, Amish people would be a good example. I see religion more as a guideline, it teaches you important values like though shall not kill etc. Problem is that even fundamentalists break those rules. Just look at Pro Life people. I think the main problem is that you can interprete the bible in every way, even in the way that it excuses killing.
In our society religion is, at least in my oppinion, a big problem. Even the bible you hold in your hands today is not the original. It has been altered at least 5-6 times. And to do something just because a book tells you to do it is not very intelligent, you gotta admit that.
I cant speak for other religions though because I mainly focused my research on Christianity.

Personally I believe that there are things we dont understand nor see and if you wanna interprete this as a religion, well heck, go ahead.

But to get to the "creation part" here. We know that the Universe was created in a pretty big explosion and that the particles bound together to form gas clouds is not random, its a law of physics. Through that process something similar to our sun formed which produced many elements we see today on our earth. The main problem is that we dont know HOW the Big Bang got here in the first place. But to say "God made it" doesnt solve the problem because if he did it...Where did he come from?

Edit:
Four words: Survival of the fittest

Ok, if you think of an explosion in an empty space, it would go on and on and on, right?
Now imagine that the explosion worked similar to an atom bomb, which means you've got at least some Atoms floating around in this empty space. All these have different weights so sooner or later they will attract themselves. What do we get? A lot of particles very close to each other. Through the friction those particles got hotter and hotter, until finally they reacted. Now we have our first sun, ok maybe its not as big as our sun but its the same principle. And what do you get if you put some atoms/particles together and put energy in it? You get a reaction which has a byproduct: New Atoms/particles. Correct me if Im wrong but this is how I understand the Big Bang.
Now to get to life on our planet. We had all these Atoms on our planet and also the new ones, for example carbon. Now I dont rly know how they developed further I just know that at some point amino acids formed which then bonded together to form long strings, with long I mean microscopic, called RNA. Through our atmosphere, which emmited a whole lot of energy, they combined and formed new things and one of those was DNA, a helix. Now the rest should be common knowledge if you werent asleep during biology class.

3 Edits should be enough for now ;d

I always lol at christians who persecute other people for being different...do you even know what christ was all about?

Well said. Praying on the "holes" (or should I say 'things we have yet to find out') in another theory is hardly a very convincing argument, especially since the alternative is scientifically untestable. If the people at CERN are able to shine some light on what might have caused the Big Bang, I think it's going to be interesting to see what it stirs up in the creationist camp.

Also, regarding the likelihood of things being the way they are, there are two things to keep in mind. The first is that no matter how small the odds are, given enough time it will happen. It may be unlikely, but not impossible. Secondly, no matter how unlikely things may seem, such as the arrangement of the atoms in a pebble or the arrangement of the amino acids, everything has to exist in a certain state. Even if the state things are in is one in a trillion, it still have to exist in one of those trillion states. So even if everything was designed, the odds of things looking the way they do would still be just as slim. The calculations may be amusing and fascinating, but can hardly be seen as support for creationism/Intelligent Design. I'll refer you to this video, he explains it better than me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3nvH6gf ... 6D&index=7

Touché ;)
Your explanation is like mine but just more simple, I tried to put it as simple as I could but you definatly did the job, thanks =D



You are absolutly right, I fully agree with you on that point. I just tried to give a basic insight of the modern cognition. Sure our brain has not evolved enough to understand all the laws. But what Im saying is that these laws are there and I tried to explain the origin of the universe based on these laws. But tbh, you could digg deeper and deeper with that argument. I say, take whats there and try to make your own assumptions. And no Im not a physics professor or anything but I dare to say that Im more informed about this subject than the average person is.
And I challenge all you believers to get your brain working and posting a theory of your own. But please dont be as retarded as the Pro Life people ;)

yes, but if we stay believing in a god, saying that we cant comprehend because of our brain and processing power, then we'll never move forward as a race,
There may come a day where we understand everything! because we'll have evolved past our current stage of intellect and understanding. but that wont happen unless we strive to learn more and discover, and question the old ways of thinking.

Which is happening right now at CERN, the holy grail of Physics is to find a new unified theory, like Einstein did.

Im going to sleep now because Im way too drunk to discuss this rationally, Ill be back in about 48 hours.

@Gold: .....You'll hear from me ;)

Isn't world unity like one of the stages for the end of the world (As according to revelations)

Also I'm going to have to crush hopes and dreams in saying that world "peace" is a pipedream

You realise that if everybody had the same attitude as you, we'd have no cars, no internet, no tv, we'd still be a primitive race. You're argument is fundementally flawed.
and "We won't understand everything until we understand that we know nothing."
Okay, I can agree to some extent with that sentence, but if we just say "we know nothing" and then leave it, we go nowhere. The human attitude should be "we know nothing, so lets go out and learn!" we may not know everything, but we know a hell of alot already, especially in the past 100 years, why? because religion's stranglehold on society has slowly weakened. Religion has always gotten in the way of science, Galileo for example, the Catholic Church threatened him for his discoveries, which today is a widely known fact that the Earth indeed travel arounds the sun.
Some of the most intelligent people in the world were/are atheists.
Stephen Hawking, the world's smartest man is an Atheist, as well as;
Issaac Newton, Abraham Lincoln, Charles Darwin, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Edison, Sigmund Freud, Mark Twain... the list goes on

EDIT: I realise i went slightly off topic there, but it backs up my point

DOUBLE EDIT:

I found a great Einstein quote for you too
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism."
It turns out you got your facts wrong about him, for he was also an agnostic

Well the whole point was that it was unified by the Antichrist

But there are also biblical references that God doesn't like world unity (See the Tower of Babel) There is also the Human element as well. While there may be no major wars between nations, there are still conflicts just on a smaller scale.

Well anywho back to the matter at hand. Yeah I believe in Evolution. There is some evidence to help base the theory as well as it being the most plausable.

There is of course the fact that the Garden of Eden story was a myth created by mr caveman to explain to his tribesmen why the world sucks.

Indeed, if we just throw in the towel as soon as we realize that we may never know everything, our development of society, philosophy, science etc. would come to a screeching halt, if not even taking a step backwards. A couple of thousand years of research and development down the crapper just because we come to the conclution that we may never know it all.

I fully agree with you, just because we can't know anything doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to learn what we can. As was said in my philosophy class; Even if we don't find the absolute truth, we can still try to get as close as possible.

Sorry if this sounds as though I'm jumping on you. I just think the topic is interesting and thought I'd share.

Einstein, although not religious in a theological sense, did believe in a higher power (even if it's some undiscovered law) and it did play a major role on his works. He rejected Copenhagen's interpretation of quantum mechanics because it (overly simplified, excuse my ignorance) made all results random acts rather than by determinable factors. Einstein's quest was to prove by formula that everything exists because of determinable factors. For things to happen randomly was against what he believed God, should he exist, to be. A famous quote by him:


Of course, he was unable to find that equation.

Anyway, sorry this was a little off topic and none of this helps either argument. Snake's right in that it doesn't matter really what Einstein believed - as everyone's beliefs are their's alone. If anyone believed in God because Einstein did (or didn't because he didn't), well, it doesn't get much sillier than that. Whatever his beliefs were, they did play a part in his work.

Personally, I like his attitude towards the whole topic.

it's a well enough known fact that Abraham Lincoln was an atheist
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/lincoln.htm
"After his son Willie died he turned to religion, but as time moved on, his sceptisism was fueled by his exposure to the ideas of the Lockean Enlightenment and classical liberalism, especially economic liberalism"
In claiming that all men were created free, Lincoln and the Whigs argued that this freedom required economic advancement, expanded education, territory to grow, and the ability of the nation to absorb the growing immigrant population.



And back on topic:

"our great ancestors did something very bad to upset God."
That's pretty flawed right there. You'd think that an all knowing omnipotant being wouldn't be subject to such foolish emotions, its too human, way too flawed