Issue 65 - World's World Person Tournament pt 9: Semi-Finals

Mongo · **Posted:** Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:52 pm

Hey guys, the latest issue is up and it's the semi-finals of the World's Worst Person in comics tournament. Today we have:

JMS vs Humberto Ramos and Grant Morrison vs James Robinson. Enjoy!

Shady-Lurker · **Posted:** Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:40 pm

I have ONE of those people in my semi-finals...pre-listen I'm still in this thing! :yuush:

...Sorta

.

Sheep Cannon · **Posted:** Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:27 am

I'm pretty sure I'm out because I did not choose either of the finalists, but the plus side is I get to hear other people justify my hatred for every book that gets mentioned. With that said, there is something you guys did over look and I'm not sure if you even know about it, but James Robinson had a huge "bag of dicks" moment.

At the end of Cry For Justice Prometheus has several bombs go off across the country and Star City gets it the worst. In the process he kills of Roy Harper's (Red Arrow/Arsenal) 10 year old daughter crushing her under debris. This of course pissed off a lot of fans because she has been around since the late 90's and since she's just a little girl and not a hero or villain she would stay dead. He only did this as a way to set up a story where Roy goes crazy after loosing his arm and his kid and then becomes a heroin junkie (again). Then afterwards he wrote this long letter basically saying "I'm sorry fans are upset, but I'm not sorry for writing it" and he came off like more of a douche because of it. I wish I knew what book it was in to take the direct quote from but I don't have it on hand and can't find the actual letter online. All I did find is a bit where he was on a panel and someone called him out on it and his response was: "hey they asked me to kill of Roy, so give me some credit here".

BuddyBaker · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:11 am

The thing with Morrison and Robinson is that they've both done great work and some rather awful work too. Based on recent work however, I'd have to give the award to Robinson as Cry for Justice and his Justice League stuff ranged from middling to bad.

Link · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:18 pm

I was talking to someone about Robinson, and whenever I mentioned his good stuff they were like "Yeah, shit that was amazing, etc." and I was like "Dude, they were terribly wordy and slow." and then he was like "Well, you have to keep in mind that these stories were written around the time Dark Knight Returns came out by Miller." From there, it sort of made sense... all my issues with that book are similar issues with Robinson. I think those early "good" books we bashed are being bashed because they're being read through Modern/Dark Age glasses.

I really need to finish Golden Age before Thursday and from an older perspective, if at all possible.

Mongo · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:54 pm

Link wrote:

I was talking to someone about Robinson, and whenever I mentioned his good stuff they were like "Yeah, shit that was amazing, etc." and I was like "Dude, they were terribly wordy and slow." and then he was like "Well, you have to keep in mind that these stories were written around the time Dark Knight Returns came out by Miller." From there, it sort of made sense... all my issues with that book are similar issues with Robinson. I think those early "good" books we bashed are being bashed because they're being read through Modern/Dark Age glasses.

I really need to finish Golden Age before Thursday and from an older perspective, if at all possible.

But they werent......Dark Knight Returns is from 1986. Golden Age/Starman is from 1993/1994 totally different eras, different vibes going on. I'm not just reading them with modern/dark age glasses either. I am currently re-reading silver age Green Lantern/X-Men and I can appreciate that stuff from what it is during those eras. I can appreciate what 70s Spider-Man is. I don't have an problem putting myself in a time and place. So I don't think that it's an issue of looking at his stuff through Modern/Dark Age glasses, Robinson's shit sucks through my normal ass glasses.

Darkseid · **Joined:** Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:43 pm **Posts:** 2555

BuddyBaker wrote:

The thing with Morrison and Robinson is that they've both done great work and some rather awful work too. Based on recent work however, I'd have to give the award to Robinson as Cry for Justice and his Justice League stuff ranged from middling to bad.

Agreed, although I'm in the camp of liking Batman R.I.P and Final Crisis.

Now if only Morrison could keep schedule.

Link · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:04 pm

I dunno Mongo, every single person I talk to is very much "For it's time it was AMAZING stuff." that's why people make such a huge deal about their "Essential Starman Showcase" books and/or single issue collections, etc. It was brave new stuff never done before, or whatever.

Mongo · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:19 pm

Link wrote:

I dunno Mongo, every single person I talk to is very much "For it's time it was AMAZING stuff." that's why people make such a huge deal about their "Essential Starman Showcase" books and/or single issue collections, etc. It was brave new stuff never done before, or whatever.

Well like I said on the podcast, when it comes to Golden Age, I just don't give a shit about any of those characters, so making me care is going to be really tough. Maybe with characters I inherently cared about I would feel different. As far as Starman, I think I disliked the pacing more than the dialogue. It just seemed like a 4 issue arc was made for no reason when it could have been done in 2. Maybe I will read a few more issues of it before our podcast this week to see if I feel any differently about what comes after the introductory arc. I'm not seeing the "never been done before" stuff from Starman so maybe I will keep reading. Sandman is infinitely better/more creative and that book ran from 1989-1996. I've read Sandman 3 times and I love it more and find more awesome things in it every time I read it.

Ehsan · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:30 pm

Wow, not knowing much about the 4 finalists, based on what I heard throughout the tournament, JMS sounds absolutely awful.

Link · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:40 pm

I'm just trying to say there HAS to be something we're not seeing, I can't see that many people being like "zomfg, my Starman collection is complete!!" all the damn time on Facebook amongst various older nerds I know, etc. and it the series being boring.

Mongo · **Posted:** Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:17 pm

Link wrote:

I'm just trying to say there HAS to be something we're not seeing, I can't see that many people being like "zomfg, my Starman collection is complete!!" all the damn time on Facebook amongst various older nerds I know, etc. and it the series being boring.

Well like I said, I'm going to read a bit more to try to get more of a feel for it.

nickmarino · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:12 pm

FIRST HALF:

Maybe I missed you guys talking about this but I don't remember it... Ramos did an AWESOME run on Spectacular Spider-Man in the early 00s. Did any of you haters read that?

WAIT... Iron Man was never punished for Civil War??? Did you read ANY of Dark Reign? Or the new Invincible Iron Man? HE WIPED HIS FUCKING MIND AND TURNED INTO A MORON! He was on the run for his life!!!!

Beelso... you were trying SOOOOO hard to make them side with you on Ramos. Ridiculous. Just let them have their opinions!!!!!!!1111

Mongo · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:46 pm

nickmarino wrote:

FIRST HALF:

Maybe I missed you guys talking about this but I don't remember it... Ramos did an AWESOME run on Spectacular Spider-Man in the early 00s. Did any of you haters read that?

I mentioned it last issue, I didn't like it.

nickmarino · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:25 pm

SECOND HALF:

We3 is the new Watchmen.

I'm not sure why you guys have such a problem with Morrison's stuff. I mean, sometimes it's weird and confusing... but generally, his body work is kickass. The Filth? INCREDIBLE! Sea Guy? KICKASS! His New X-Men run (most of it... even though some of the art loses me)? KILLER! Mister Miracle mini? SWEET! Animal Man? BRILLIANT! I'm glad he didn't make it to the finals.

Mongo · **Posted:** Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:48 pm

nickmarino wrote:

SECOND HALF:

We3 is the new Watchmen.

I'm not sure why you guys have such a problem with Morrison's stuff. I mean, sometimes it's weird and confusing... but generally, his body work is kickass. The Filth? INCREDIBLE! Sea Guy? KICKASS! His New X-Men run (most of it... even though some of the art loses me)? KILLER! Mister Miracle mini? SWEET! Animal Man? BRILLIANT! I'm glad he didn't make it to the finals.

He is my #1 enemy. If you missed it I had like a 10 minute monologue tirade about him in issue 64. I think he for the most part is an elitist douchebag. I think his Batman shit sucks, and I know you think Batman sucks Nick, but he is one of my favorite characters and favorite properties and for him to get all Grant Morrisony all over it just doesn't work for me. He has taken a character I love, one of my favorites, and in my opinion, just shit all over him. His writing on Final Crisis was atrocious, just terrible imo. One of my least favorite events ever. I gave his JLA stuff another shot and I thought the 3rd arc he wrote (Rock of Ages was pretty good).

Like I said, I haven't read his New X-Men stuff in a long time, but my memories of it were mostly not liking it, but I'm willing to give it another chance. I feel, like the rest of the guys like his work is generally better out of DC/Marvel continuity and him just left doing his own thing. Not saying I'm gonna like it, but that is where I give him a bigger chance for success. I think We3 is a perfect example of what I would like to see more of from him, it was great storytelling, but as far as his writing goes for canon continuity super-hero books, I would like to see him off them forever.

Sheep Cannon · **Posted:** Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:04 am

Mongo wrote:

Link wrote:

I'm just trying to say there HAS to be something we're not seeing, I can't see that many people being like "zomfg, my Starman collection is complete!!" all the damn time on Facebook amongst various older nerds I know, etc. and it the series being boring.

Well like I said, I'm going to read a bit more to try to get more of a feel for it.

I'd imagine that James Robinson, much like Grant Morrison and Frank Miller, has fans who read his earlier work back when it was still contemporary and they have held out hoping he'd achieve the same highs as he has in the past. They're a class of writers who may have churned out a good/great story in the past but have been riding that wave for years. Personally I've never read anything I've enjoyed from Morrison or Robinson, so I understand why they've reached the positions they have thus far. I understand that there are people that (groan) like/love some of his work, but let's call a spade a spade here: James Robinson has not written a good book since the early 90's; and he never wrote anything that changed or defined the industry. Further more, its not like he hasn't had opportunities: for almost two years the guy was given JLA, what could/should be DC's flagship and did absolutely nothing with it. In fact, less than nothing.

And while I myself hate Grant Morrison, even I admit the guy has some good ideas left rolling around in that bald head of his.

Lastly, JMS has also made it to the finals. A guy each of you have enjoyed in one way or another at some point. Yes the guy is a royal dickwad when it comes to his ego and the way he just drops books; but if you're going to question "why Robinson"; a writer two of you were unfamiliar with up to this point; has made it this far, shouldn't you also be thinking more into how JMS has made it to the finals as well?

Btw I'm kind of buzzed right now so I'm not entirely sure how much of this makes sense until I look it over tomorrow.

Link · **Posted:** Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:24 am

I was thinking more as to why we weren't finding anything of Robinson we enjoyed. But, like you said, some people like it and some don't.

nickmarino · **Posted:** Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:17 am

Mongo wrote:

If you missed it I had like a 10 minute monologue tirade about him in issue 64. I think he for the most part is an elitist douchebag. I think his Batman shit sucks, and I know you think Batman sucks Nick, but he is one of my favorite characters and favorite properties and for him to get all Grant Morrisony all over it just doesn't work for me. He has taken a character I love, one of my favorites, and in my opinion, just shit all over him. His writing on Final Crisis was atrocious, just terrible imo. One of my least favorite events ever. I gave his JLA stuff another shot and I thought the 3rd arc he wrote (Rock of Ages was pretty good).

I heard the monologue. I guess I didn't really understand until you described it this way. I mean, it's hard for me to relate, but I can understand where you're coming from when you say it like this.

Link · **Posted:** Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:28 am

I don't mind him writing in-continuity stuff... I'm just entirely not down with Final Crisis and Batman's death/rebirth/etc. it just wasn't handled that well. Sea Guy was ok as well... but a bit of a headache at times.

Issue 65 - World's World Person Tournament pt 9: Semi-Finals

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