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 Post subject: What makes a Good RPG.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:43 am 
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Marine, Jet, & Coil
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Great episodes this week bros.

Spoilering this because it's long as hell:

Spoiler
You've all covered basically what I would feel makes an RPG. So I don't want to get into that. However, I do want to get into the topic Mike brought up with the Jennifer Helper interview. An option to skip the combat in a video game, more specifically an RPG, is a ridiculous notion. Like Tom, Joey, and Jason were saying, if you just want a story, go get a movie or read a book. Plain and simple point is that if you're not willing to 'play' the game then you don't really want to play a game. You want to WATCH a story with engaging characters and a deep involved plot unfold in front of you. You want a movie.
Part of a good RPG is that you get immersed in the world of the characters. You have to be put in some of the same situations as them, and feel like you're dealing with some of the same hardships as they are. The character your controlling doesn't just coast through life from the beginning of their adventure only to find themselves victorious over whatever they're trying to overcome. They have to battle their way through a hostile world, for the most part, becoming stronger with each victory, until they are ultimately strong enough to take on whatever foe they need to face. So the battles and other game play mechanics serve as another level of immersion for the game.
Also, the developers do not consider themselves a movie complany. It's not in their mission statement to give you a game with almost no gameplay, and one which is PURELY story driven. Your point of wanting to go through the game this way is another way of saying, you want to fly through it and get the full extent of the story. I'm sorry, but if you don't want to devote 40 hours to a game, then RPGs aren't for you. You want an engaging story that you can get through in a few hours? Go watch a movie! There's plenty of movies with epic stories out there. Want something longer with a more engaging and complex story? Go read a book! If you're looking for something light on gameplay and heavy on story, this is the wrong medium, and I don't feel that should change.
Let's say we take this to the extreme, and a mainstream RPG is released with a game-mode option which skips battles. Essentially what you have is a game that goes like this:

1:Game intro
2:Run to NPC 1, who will give you a piece of the story
3:Instead of a battle you get a cutscene of a battle, followed by the next plot point
4:You have to travel to the next NPC to get to the next plot point
5:Repeat from step 2

That sounds pretty boring IMO. You could argue that you leave in the ability to upgrade your characters and purchase new items, but I could argue that I've done that and it gets boring fast. I've used cheat codes to give me all the items, level my character to the max, or anything else that makes the combat a breeze. Every game I've done that with, I've abandoned because it got really boring. It didn't feel like I was actually acomplishing anything or that I was getting invested in the characters as much.
I don't believe that you can have a Video Game that is simply Story, and have it hold your attention as much as one where you have to fight the battles. The Immersion will suffer because you're removing the evidence of a struggle the characters must go through. Developers would not see the point of making an interactive movie, devoid of most gameplay mechanics they most likely feel makes the industry what it is. Finally, I feel that excluding the gameplay would make for a very boring experience that most gamers would give up on before the end.

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 Post subject: Re: What makes a Good RPG.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:28 pm 
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I already covered my opinion on the pure story playthrough in the latest Yamagato episode thread. Basically I find playing a game purely for story, not gameplay dumb and a waste of $60. However, if the option of doing a story playthrough in Mass Effect 3 doesn't effect me playing the game as an RPG then I don't care. More options in games are great, but I don't know one person who wants to play a videogame purely for story and not gameplay. It's simply a waste of money.

As for a good RPG, I'm going to get this out of the way and I've brought this up in other threads: I haven't been able to stand a JRPG or turn-based combat since the SNES era. Japanese RPG characters really don't appeal to me (not going to lie, most Japanese culture doesn't really appeal to me either. Not meant to bash the culture or games, it's just not for me) and to me turn-based combat seems very dated. I want gameplay to be engaging, like I'm in control and going throw menus to pick my attack, spell etc. then waiting for my next turn to attack doesn't excite me. Works great for SNES-era games (Final Fantasy 2 and 3 [NA version] and Crono Trigger are still some of my favorite RPGs) but nowadays I want to feel like I'm in control of combat.

Western RPGs have really engrossed me lately. Been playing Skyrim, and pretty much only Skyrim for a month now and love it. Fallout 3 and New Vegas as well are awesome fun. Searching the world, finding new places to dungeon crawl for loot and quests are great. But what I truely enjoy in an RPG is a perfect combination of gameplay and story. Mass Effect hit it out of the park. To lesser extent the Dragon Age games (don't care what people say, I like Dragon Age 2) and even a less popular Alpha Protocol are great examples of a story you can shape but also fun and engaging gameplay.

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 Post subject: Re: What makes a Good RPG.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:15 pm 
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I think the hardware limitations have a bigger effect on RPG's than most other types of games.

NES RPG's are really quite bare in what they off gamers to do because of usually the size of the game. Final Fantasy and the Dragon Warrior games are pretty large NES games, but they are still tiny compared to modern day RPG's. For most genres, you just sacrifice graphics in going back in consoles. For RPG's, size really does matter.

I am one of the few people that can still play older RPG's and enjoy the hell out of them. NES RPG's focus more heavily on the story as they leave the extras by the wayside. It is not until the SNES when RPG's begin to do other aspects. There are finally sidequests and parts of the game besides just doing the story quest. PS1 and finally PS2 games have made the sidequests even a bigger part of the genre. As long as you enjoy the story and the combat of the game, there is nothing wrong with the NES RPG's. Hell, Dragon Warrior IV & Final Fantasy are in the Top 25 of the greatest NES games of all time.

I cannot stand Western RPG's. They still remind me of old PC games and they do not interest me at all. Also, I have played Dungeons & Dragons many of times. I would rather do that then played it on a video game console. My favorite RPG's are JRPG's. They have a much better story and a much less focus on a singular character running through a large open world.

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 Post subject: Re: What makes a Good RPG.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Markies wrote:
I cannot stand Western RPG's. They still remind me of old PC games and they do not interest me at all. Also, I have played Dungeons & Dragons many of times. I would rather do that then played it on a video game console. My favorite RPG's are JRPG's. They have a much better story and a much less focus on a singular character running through a large open world.


I think I just found my arch-nemesis... Game ON!! :omg:

Nah, to each their own. Personally I would rather get lost in a world than deal with characters that don't really appeal to me. Like I said, I don't like most JRPG characters and the gameplay mechanics are just not my taste. I can argue some Western RPGs have better stories than some JRPGs but there really is no winning in that kind of debate.

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 Post subject: Re: What makes a Good RPG.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Mr Black wrote:
Markies wrote:
I cannot stand Western RPG's. They still remind me of old PC games and they do not interest me at all. Also, I have played Dungeons & Dragons many of times. I would rather do that then played it on a video game console. My favorite RPG's are JRPG's. They have a much better story and a much less focus on a singular character running through a large open world.


I think I just found my arch-nemesis... Game ON!! :omg:

Nah, to each their own. Personally I would rather get lost in a world than deal with characters that don't really appeal to me. Like I said, I don't like most JRPG characters and the gameplay mechanics are just not my taste. I can argue some Western RPGs have better stories than some JRPGs but there really is no winning in that kind of debate.


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That is kind of the reason I play GTA and Zelda games. They have worlds where I can just explore and they are these living and breathing organisms. Granted, I have not played any of these generations RPG's, but they just don't appeal to me.

And JRPG's are a niche inside a small genre that is RPG's. They don't apply to everybody as Tom said many times on the Podcast. And there are many common occurrences in the JRPG that have begun to wane since the beginning. Memory loss, evil empire, small town boy, no parents, religion is evil and any other tired trope that you can imagine.

I think JRPG's & Western RPG's both have their place. I'm actually glad to see Western RPG's get their moment in the sun. It gives me hope that the RPG genre will always continue and it brings a smile to think of all the people who are being introduced to RPG's. Now, they have the opportunity to go back and try some great ones from the past.

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 Post subject: Re: What makes a Good RPG.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:10 pm 
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I'm currently playing through FFV on PS3 (Only $9.99) and it holds up well. I've put over 30 hrs into it and I'm still enjoying it. I love all the SNES Final Fantasy games and everything about them is near perfect.

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 Post subject: Re: What makes a Good RPG.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:18 am 
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I'll probably call in with my opinion as well.

To me, a good RPG has good game mechanics. I don't agree with Mike that gameplay is secondary to a good story. To me, good gameplay is vital. I can forgive a weak story if the game is just fun to play.

Earthbound is a classic example of this. I know a lot of people consider Earthbound's story to be top notch, but hear me out. I'm not saying that it's bad. I'm just saying that the story component is actually secondary to just how dang fun the game is to play. First of all, the rolling hit point counter is pure genius. It provides a very intuitive form of strategy as well as an element of frantic drama to the fighting system that other RPGs just don't touch. That you can receive a fatal blow and still score a victory before your character passes out is amazing. Also, if you use a cure item or spell before the counter hits zero, you can avert being knocked out.

I also really appreciated that there was an entire mechanic built around whether or not you or your opponent initiated an attack. If you get the drop on a powerful enemy, you get an early advantage and could conceivably win the battle without taking any damage. Also, you can defeat weaker enemies without even going into a battle, because you're guaranteed to win in the first round anyway.

The writing in Earthbound is, of course, excellent, but it's incorporated into the gameplay. Your lead character becomes homesick, which affects your performance in battles. The game forces you to be involved with the story and doesn't get too full of itself like other RPGs. The story is great because it is so integrated into the gameplay itself.

On a side note, one of my favorite aspects of this game is that it has you name your characters, your dog, your most powerful spell, and your favorite food. Being a teenager at the time, I could not help defining my favorite food as "PU**Y", and then laughed hysterically when the mother of the game would ask Ness and his friends if they'd like to eat some. Who knew that your mother was running a bordello?

Another favorite RPG mechanic of mine is Grandia. Grandia is one of the few games to have gotten the active-time battle system done right. It's actually the main component of the system, because certain spells and characters are faster than others. If you see your enemy casting a powerful spell that's going to do a lot of damage, you could conceivably launch a pre-emptive attack on that spell, providing that your speed was fast enough to beat the enemy to the draw. Again, this added a layer of frantic gameplay that made the game so gosh darn fun to play!

I don't even remember what the story of Grandia was about. Something about a wall and a new continent and... ancient stuff. I don't know. That's not why you should play Grandia, anyway. Grandia is just a fun RPG.

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